18-07-2005, 14:34
Kendra a dit :
Pour Silmo : je suis en train de lire HOME 10, et là ce que tu dis au sujet des balrog est absolument capital.... Mais ça me nââââââvre ! Si Tonton a révisé le nombre de balrogs en activité, c'était certainement avec une bonne intention mais c'est surtout pas de chance, car comme nous avons eu le Sil et les Cli après sa mort, la réduction des balrogs vien forcément contredire les autres livres (pas intentionnellement puisque Tonton n'avait pas prévu qu'ils soient publiés).
Non point, chère Elisa. Rien de ce qui a été publié en Sil ou UT ne contredit un nombre très restreint de Balrogs.
Kendra a dit :
Hors, à la bataille de Gondolin il y avait effectivement un nombre énorme de balrog, dépassant facilement les 7. Je n'ai plus la citation, ce n'est pas dans les CLI, bon ce ne serait pas non plus dans le SIL.... mais alors où ? (empoigne les Contes Perdus) Voilààààààà j'ai, page 228 de l'édition Presses Pocket (sorry, je les ai pas en anglais) il parle des serpents de métal remplis de feu fabriqués dans les forges de Morgoth " et sur ceux ci chevauchaient des balrogs par centaine".
Par centaines.... Donc s'il réduit les centaines à sept seulement, on peut imaginer que sa conception de la chute de Gondolin a grandement évolué. En tout cas, dans la vision de Tonton la plus ancienne (celle qu'il a donc changé) il s'est fait grand massacre de balrogs et de dragons. Donc les elfes du premier âge étaient forts et vaillants, et même si seuls Ecthelion et Glorfindel sont cités comme tueurs de balrog, il parait évident que d'autres elfes ont fait de même.
Par centaines.... Donc s'il réduit les centaines à sept seulement, on peut imaginer que sa conception de la chute de Gondolin a grandement évolué. En tout cas, dans la vision de Tonton la plus ancienne (celle qu'il a donc changé) il s'est fait grand massacre de balrogs et de dragons. Donc les elfes du premier âge étaient forts et vaillants, et même si seuls Ecthelion et Glorfindel sont cités comme tueurs de balrog, il parait évident que d'autres elfes ont fait de même.
Ce n'est rien moins qu'évident à mon avis :) je suppose que tu fais référence à des passages tels que celui-ci :
'Now the Orcs again take heart from the coming of the drakes, and they mingle with the Balrogs that pour about the breach, and they assail the Gondothlim grievously. There Tuor slew Othrod a lord of the Orcs cleaving his helm, and Balcmeg he hewed asunder, and Lug he smote with his axe that his limbs were cut from beneath him at the knee, but Ecthelion shore through two captains of the goblins at a sweep and cleft the head of Orcobal their chiefest champion to his teeth; and by reason of the great doughtiness of those two lords they came even unto the Balrogs. Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three, for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed; yet of the leap of that axe Dramborleg that was swung by the hand of Tuor were they still more afraid, for it sang like the rush of eagle's wings in the air and took death as it fell, and five of them went down before it.
'But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog's and his shield fell to earth even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls. Then Ecthelion must lean on Tuor, and Tuor might not leave him, though the very feet of the trampling beast were upon them, and they were like to be overborne: but Tuor hewed at a foot of the creature so that flame spouted forth, and that serpent screamed, lashing with its tail; and many of both Orcs and Noldoli got their death therefrom. Now Tuor gathered his might and lifted Ecthelion, and amid a remnant of the folk got thereunder and escaped the drake; yet dire was the killing of men that beast had wrought, and the Gondothlim were sorely shaken.
'Thus it was that Tuor son of Peleg gave before the foe, fighting as he yielded ground, and bore from that hattle Ecthelion of the Fountain, but the drakes and the foemen held half the city and all the north of it. [...]
'But so it is that few cannot fight always against the many, and Ecthelion's left arm got a sore rent from a whip of the Balrog's and his shield fell to earth even as that dragon of fire drew nigh amid the ruin of the walls. Then Ecthelion must lean on Tuor, and Tuor might not leave him, though the very feet of the trampling beast were upon them, and they were like to be overborne: but Tuor hewed at a foot of the creature so that flame spouted forth, and that serpent screamed, lashing with its tail; and many of both Orcs and Noldoli got their death therefrom. Now Tuor gathered his might and lifted Ecthelion, and amid a remnant of the folk got thereunder and escaped the drake; yet dire was the killing of men that beast had wrought, and the Gondothlim were sorely shaken.
'Thus it was that Tuor son of Peleg gave before the foe, fighting as he yielded ground, and bore from that hattle Ecthelion of the Fountain, but the drakes and the foemen held half the city and all the north of it. [...]
The Book of Lost Tales, HOME II, 181
Passage très intéressant qui a son parallèle dans le Later Fall of Gondolin :
'But the Orcs [again took heart from >] were driven forth by the coming of the [úrulóki >] worms and drakes, and they gathered around the Balrog that had opened the breach, and they assailed the Gondolindrim grievously. For they poured through the walls but like an irresistible flood. Then in great haste came Ecthelion who rallied the men of the Fountain and he stood firm; and he was joined by Tuor and those of the Wing. And they made a slaughter among the Orcs for none could stand before these two [champions >] lords whose bright swords sang like the rush of eagle's wings [deleted: in the air] and took death as they fell. Yet the onslaught was not stayed: For the Gondolindrim could not wholly drive the foes back behind the walls or they all would have certainly perished for the fire of the dragons there. And the orcs pressed them harder and harder.
'Soon Ecthelion took Tuor apart and cried to him:
"Alas! In our fight lies no hope and the walls of our fair city are now bound to fall. Go now for fear that the star of both our kins do the same. Seek for Maeglin. For my heart tells me that he might be involved in such further evil!"
'Soon Ecthelion took Tuor apart and cried to him:
"Alas! In our fight lies no hope and the walls of our fair city are now bound to fall. Go now for fear that the star of both our kins do the same. Seek for Maeglin. For my heart tells me that he might be involved in such further evil!"
Retrieved Tales, HOME XIII, 241-242
Avec une note très très intéressante - qui n'est pas sans soutenir l'exégèse que nous avions nous-mêmes produites, avec Ben, durant l'une de nos réunions chez Bertrand. La note de Christopher donne :
Among the papers related my father wrote a very rough commentary about this passage (which stands cleary as the counterpart of the earliest 1916-1920 Fall of Gondolin at II.181 :
The story that first appeared in F[all of] G[ondolin] must not necessarly be held as "wrong". It describes some of the typical and inevitable mistakes - however not without interest - that were carried by some traditions. Here, FG mus[t] be considered as derived from a somewhat "naive" source. Its author must have been someone very close to the young Eärendil of this time; for such an unreasonable place [given?] to Tuor among the greatest of the Eldar let us catch a glimpse of the love (and imagination) of a seven years old child (yet valiant) for his beloved father. Balcmeg, Lug & Orcobal (and their fate) would rather have been taken from recollections of the nightmares of a young boy than from the lore of the Exiles - to whom the names of their ennemies were seldom known.
The story that first appeared in F[all of] G[ondolin] must not necessarly be held as "wrong". It describes some of the typical and inevitable mistakes - however not without interest - that were carried by some traditions. Here, FG mus[t] be considered as derived from a somewhat "naive" source. Its author must have been someone very close to the young Eärendil of this time; for such an unreasonable place [given?] to Tuor among the greatest of the Eldar let us catch a glimpse of the love (and imagination) of a seven years old child (yet valiant) for his beloved father. Balcmeg, Lug & Orcobal (and their fate) would rather have been taken from recollections of the nightmares of a young boy than from the lore of the Exiles - to whom the names of their ennemies were seldom known.
Retrieved Tales, HOME XIII, 258
Effectivement, papa Tuor avait le beau rôle :) C'est lui qu'il fallait envoyer défier Morgoth en duel ... :) Mais pour en revenir à la question des Balrogs, les démons de puissance, les plus terribles serviteurs de l'Ennemi après Sauron, le FG peut difficilement constituer une source totalement fiable. Il n'y a pas lieu de croire que d'autres Elfes aient égalé les exploits des seigneurs Glorfindel et Ecthelion : chacune des autres confrontations qui ont été rapportées de Princes des Eldar (et non des moindres : Fëanor, Fingon) avec des Balrogs ne fait état d'aucune perte chez ces derniers, et confirme par là même 1) la puissance terrible des Balrogs, en même temps que 2) leur nombre restreint (2) étant le corrollaire de 1) sinon des centaines ou des milliers de Balrogs auraient vite réduit le nombre des batailles du Beleriand ;) et Morgoth se serait allègrement passé d'orques ou de dragons).
Kendra a dit :
Alors pourquoi Gandalf a-t-il autant de mal à tuer le sien ? On pourrait mettre ça sur le compte de son enveloppe physique, ou du "marissement" d'Arda qui fait qu'au troisième âge, toutes les choses sont lasses et diminuées (le pouvoir des elfes, des hommes, des ents et même du méchant : Sauron n'a pas l'envergure de Morgoth).
Mais on pourrait aussi tout simplement dire que la conception de Tonton avait évolué au sujet des balrogs et que dans son esprit ils ataient "devenus" bien plus coriaces qu'auparavant.
Mais on pourrait aussi tout simplement dire que la conception de Tonton avait évolué au sujet des balrogs et que dans son esprit ils ataient "devenus" bien plus coriaces qu'auparavant.
J'ai donc plutôt tendance, pour ma part, à m'émerveiller de ce que Gandalf puisse « tuer le sien », chose, selon les sources les plus proches, jamais accomplies ailleurs que par Glorfindel, Ecthelion, et l'armée de la Grande Colère menée par les Valar eux-mêmes ! Ce qui nous montre la nature extraordinaire de Gandalf.
Aussi s'agit-il d'être prudent et critique si l'on rapproche des textes d'origines si différentes : le Livre Rouge fut l'œuvre de hobbits fort sages ayant eu accès aux bibliothèques de Minas Tirith et d'Imladris, tandis que la Chute de Gondolin de Home II fut peut-être composée à partir des témoignages d'un garçon de sept ans ... :)
Yyr